Thread Rating:
  • 8 Votes - 3.5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Fairness and Impartiality
Author Message
methuselah Offline
Moderator Supreme
******

Posts: 1,715
Joined: Dec 2011
Post: #61
RE: Fairness and Impartiality
The definition of account eating is clear. Killing another account that you appear to have control of (con yard exposed, no defense or wrong side defense, no damage attacks, resources transferred, repetitive killing) it is pretty straightforward. I completely understand why this is frustrating and we'll strive to do better going forward but there is no perfect solution here I'm afraid.

rhiordd is unavailable (out of town or something) i'm sure he'll chime in when he's back.

(08-03-2016 07:29 PM)PapaUGA Wrote:  I'd like you to prove this with Iampapa's account. The problem is nobody, even the account holder is being shown the evidence and since I know for a fact that Iampapa's is a total fabrication you'll have to forgive me for saying your quote doesn't hold water in this case. You may or may not have seen the evidence here but what you said is not true.. it may not be your fault but its not true.

Like I said, no one is banned or suspended based on a con yard forward attack only there must be other stuff. Repetitive killing, defense "arranged" to deliver no damage, resource transfer, etc. You can believe it, or not, as you see fit but that is how it works.

To me this isn't that hard. Don't participate in anything that looks like account eating and you won't get caught up in the account eating processing. I'm not trying to be flip here I'm simply saying that the community as a whole basically said the entire game was ruined due to account eating so we are trying to do what we can do to address that. There is no magic solution here I wish there was. We're trying to weed out the cheaters, if someone gets caught up in the effort to do that none of us want that and we'll fix it as soon as possible I would just be cautious to avoid putting yourself into a situation here where it looks like you are doing something you should not be doing.

10-03-2016 08:49 PM
 Search 
CallMeXhail Offline
Junior Member
**

Posts: 27
Joined: Feb 2016
Post: #62
RE: Fairness and Impartiality
(not pointed at you meth)

I am glad you all are trying to clean up the game, seriously.

The problem is that there are no clear rules for this game. Everything has a blanket clause and these bans or sanctions always seem to be dished out at very convenient times on these servers. That doesn't mean any one of you in particular are doing wrong. However, to the community, and people playing against alliances in which moderators play in, opposing players seem to get dealt a bad hand. This is the only consistent thing on the game.

Everyone seems to have the answer of "I think" when we ask if something is legal or not. That should not be the case. The answer should be clearly written out in the TOS which specifically states which actions results in a ban.

The TOS clearly say you may violate the rules if you exploit. Well, there's 10,000,000 exploits on this game. The TOS does not say anything about account eating, account farming, forgotten base farming, MCV exploit, PVP lock outs using alts, killing an alt account, etc... You even have a mission in the beginning of the game that says kill 10 enemies... How do normal people complete that mission in the beginning of the game if there's no war or enemies? What bases do you think end up getting killed to complete that mission? I would wager that all of the dead accounts sitting in the starting sector would be the best option in that case. But, what if a new player to the game sees that mission and has some alt accounts? Nothing in the rules says he cannot kill his alt accounts to complete that mission. See, this can be spun 100 different ways because there is no rule in place.

So, who gets to decide who gets banned for what and for how long? <--- this is the part that is unfair. One player on one world may only get kicked after he's eaten 50 accounts. Yet, another world, one player gets kicked for killing an alt account. There has to be some consistency here.
(10-03-2016 08:49 PM)methuselah Wrote:  The definition of account eating is clear. Killing another account that you appear to have control of (con yard exposed, no defense or wrong side defense, no damage attacks, resources transferred, repetitive killing) it is pretty straightforward. I completely understand why this is frustrating and we'll strive to do better going forward but there is no perfect solution here I'm afraid.

rhiordd is unavailable (out of town or something) i'm sure he'll chime in when he's back.


(not pointed at you meth)



And, I would not define moving CY to the side account eating - if the base size does not change. I would call that account farming. Thus, is the same thing you can do against a forgotten base. You get a good sim on a high level base with minimal rep time, make an attack for resources, then let it heal and repeat the process. Either method, you are spending some type of resource to get another... whether it is CP or rep time.

Same thing can go the opposite way. You could attack your main account with another account and get crystal that way. There's no ruin and the enemy cannot see who is attacking you, nor report you. You get all of the crystal from the attacking army.

When you eat something, you consume the actual item you are eating. When I hear of eating, I think of a cheeseburger... When you start, it is 100 percent. After a few bites, it is smaller. Anything other than that, it is not eating.

Therefore, killing a base which remains the same size afterwards was not eaten. A better term would be farming. It could have been killed to move the account out of the way, could have been used to hold a POI, could have been used to stop forgotten attacks, could have been a lock out account... Regardless, there's no rule on this game that says you cannot do any of this. So, it is only up to the discretion of some person at EA who is merely going by a photo to decide whether they want to ban or not for "account eating." As mentioned before, all of this could be solved by simply stating a list of items which are not allowed and result in a ban.


An exploit is basically a flaw in a game that the developer has failed to take the time to correct. Instead of turning away your paying customers, fix the problems with the game. For starters, reduce the loot reward from PVP. Make it where it is not advantageous to do PVP. That will stop you all from having to police players from eating accounts as you call it and allow you to focus more time towards development.
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2016 12:05 AM by CallMeXhail.)
10-03-2016 09:50 PM
 Search 
Ulugulan Offline
Posting Freak
*****

Posts: 991
Joined: Aug 2013
Post: #63
RE: Fairness and Impartiality
(10-03-2016 08:49 PM)methuselah Wrote:  The definition of account eating is clear. Killing another account that you appear to have control of (con yard exposed, no defense or wrong side defense, no damage attacks, resources transferred, repetitive killing) it is pretty straightforward. I completely understand why this is frustrating and we'll strive to do better going forward but there is no perfect solution here I'm afraid.

rhiordd is unavailable (out of town or something) i'm sure he'll chime in when he's back.
Again I insist a definite statement be made as to what is considered cheating and what is not. More than happy to wait till Rhiordd is back.

I agree with your definition of account farming with a small but important caveat. The account being eaten sells buildings to create lootable resources above the looting army's carry capacity. So that the loot is significant.

Con yard expose, no damage attack, repetitive killing can also be done for other purposes. Simply getting a 40 pace jump. One might argue repetitive killing might not be involved. But consider this example: Sometimes people kill alts to hold POIs with player base ruins. Two advantages - no danger of loosing it from forgotten attacks, and No danger of loosing POI in PvP. Several alliances do it -- U can call it an exploit, unsportsmanlike and what not but since its an option available to both sides, I personally don't see it as cheating. But what I think is unimportant, we need to know what the game designers think as fair.

In this forum thread a mod has expressed his opinion on how the definition of account eating should be expanded. I don't agree with him, while many others I know do agree with him.

(08-03-2016 09:48 AM)nuubal Wrote:  IMHO:
Lets take a look at Point 10 of ulugulans list. Its very interessting. Lets take the account eating part, farming huge amount resources out of a playersbase. Prehitting/weaking bases means to indirectly farm commandpoint and repairtime out of a playersbase. So inho it definitly fits into the account farming. Ressources are ressources... and repairtime and commandpoints are ressources. Killing a level 38 base with 2 attacks after multiaccounts hit that 25 times? Seriouly... thats account farming on a very high level. And now please tell me that this kind of account farming wasnt or isnt a mainpart of rof strategie?

Now having alts has never been considered cheating. For as long as I have played this game, I know people have used alts to boost performance of one account. Is it now not allowed to do? We need an answer!
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2016 04:26 AM by Ulugulan.)
11-03-2016 04:25 AM
 Search 
rhiordd Offline
Producer
*******

Posts: 3,003
Joined: Dec 2011
Post: #64
RE: Fairness and Impartiality
(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is use of alt accounts in general for any purpose illegal?

No. Playing multiple accounts is not illegal.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  If a use of alt accounts is not illegal, is there a limit to how many alts one could use?

No. There is no limit. We are a free to register and free to play the game, its impossible to control anyway and we can´t not just only focus the people where its obvious because of account names like 01, 02, 03, etc., and ignore others where it´s not obvious.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is killing of alt account for any purpose illegal?

If you for example want to move your base and just ghost it to relocate, do it. However, repeatedly and abusive killing to exploit loot, as we call it "account eating", is not allowed. Note, if you do it once or twice in a while to quickly grab missing resources you could need at that very moment, its not a big deal, we always look at the full extend. We do not have a problem with you guys using alt killing strategies to improve your play, and nothing is forbidden that could be achieved by a group of players who are just good organized. However, repeatedly and heavy exploiting with the pure purpose of the maximum loot outcome over hours, days, weeks, is considered an exploit. That's why we introduced a reporting system, where we look at each case ourselves.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is killing of alt account for the purpose of looting of resources illegal?

Yes, if done too heavily. Again, no problem in doing it once in a while or let your alliance members kill one of your alt if he needs the res. Exploiting is when you are abusing these game mechanics and gain an unfair advantage over it. You won't get an unfair advantage if you are doing it here and there but you definitely do if you are doing it permanently with loads of accounts.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is using alts to land on POIs and then kicking from alliance to kill the base and keeping control of the said POI illegal?

No, that's strategy.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is using alts/other players to attack lock a certain base while it engages in PvP or PvE illegal? More generally is attack locking a base so that it can;t be attacked illegal?

There is no difference if a player or alt is doing it, no.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is blocking a layout by an alt illegal?

No.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is using alts to spy on enemy bases illegal?

No, any player could do that.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is using of alts to disrupt enemy 0 wave zones, or to steal POIs away or to in general harass the enemy illegal?

No.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is using alts to pre-hit bases/Camps?OPs and then using a single account illegal?

No, pretty difficult to proof either.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is doing all the above actions but not using alts but real players Illegal? (While u are at it do answer if you can determine if an action is via an alt or not!)

No. If some people dedicate a lot of time to progress to the game its fine, if someone wants to play 20 accounts, that's absolutely fine, there is no reason why it shouldn't. All of the above, done by alts, friends or alliances playing together is no problem. A problem is if certain mechanics are abused too heavily and used to get an unfair advantage. Playing multiple accounts is not having an unfair advantage, it's maybe having a lot of time, but just having a load of accounts, does not make you a better player.


(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is deliberately putting CY away from defense, so that one can die and use the 40 space jump illegal?

No totally not.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  More specifically, is it illegal to use an ally/an alt account to kill one's base so that one can use the 40 space jump for some purpose (e.g. simply use the 1 hour shield at the dig front protected from forgotten attack, from which otherwise one's base would die)?

No, that´s a pretty clever move.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is use of any kind of automaton scripts, illegal?

No, however, we do not support them in any kind and if we break them for some reason, we won´t be sorry. Its simply an impossible task to oversee and control the scripts at the moment. The nature of a browser game is already limiting us in control. However, we do not tolerate the automator, as this comes similar to an aimbot in shooters.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  If so are the scripts which periodically and automatically collect packages, illegal?

We know how important the Maelstrom tools are for the players and wont take any action against, yet not support it if it breaks.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is the use of scripts which automatically repair buildings after suffering damage in attacks, illegal?

We know how important the Maelstrom or similar tools are for the players and won't take any action against, yet not support it if it breaks.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is the use of scripts which automatically sends substitution requests to Commanders when logging off (during war situations), illegal?

No, you can do that yourself anytime you log off as well.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is the use of scripts which automatically and periodically scan for layouts, illegal?
Is the use of scripts which send out mobile alerts when one's base is under attack, illegal?

We won't support any of these scripts, yet we will not take any action against it at this moment.

(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is the use of (auto)pro-sim which automatically finds the best simulation on a given target, illegal?

Yes.


After all, there is one golden rule: Is a player abusing the game and its mechanics to get an unfair advantage, then we don't like it. Either by playing alts and abusing them with exploiting or by using dubious scripts. Generally speaking, automated anti cheat will not work in CCTA, we discussed this for years and it's not possible. We started a process how players can report players here in the forums, we will look at each case and decide if it's legit or not. I want to make one thing crystal clear, we hate cheaters, everybody does. If someone thinks he needs to mess with the system, the game, and its players, please leave, we don't want you. We want to make this game as good as we can, with all of you. We are a small team, we have limited resources, it´s not up to EA to chase the cheaters or their support, the only people who could do that are the developers. If we would spend our time to only hunt down cheaters, we wouldn't be able to do anything else. So we rely, on the players to report cheating via our forum.

I think that meanwhile, we are not doing to bad on that end and it's showing first effects. Obviously, we are human too, we need to take a look, deal with it, forward to get it actioned, etc. It costs time, we can't change the world overnight, we can't make the game "exploiter" free overnight. It will only work if we together, educate the gamers around us. Everybody plays a part in it. I think we are on a good track.

(This post was last modified: 11-03-2016 11:10 AM by rhiordd.)
11-03-2016 11:10 AM
 Search 
xCreedxl Offline
Junior Member
**

Posts: 1
Joined: May 2015
Post: #65
RE: Fairness and Impartiality
(11-03-2016 11:10 AM)rhiordd Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is using alts to pre-hit bases/Camps?OPs and then using a single account illegal?

No, pretty difficult to proof either.


(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  More specifically, is it illegal to use an ally/an alt account to kill one's base so that one can use the 40 space jump for some purpose (e.g. simply use the 1 hour shield at the dig front protected from forgotten attack, from which otherwise one's base would die)?

No, that´s a pretty clever move.

well... here we have the main theme and problem of this topic and on Tib10,
and now rhiordd just log in and tell us again that´s ok, what reign of fire is doing there with their multiple acc´s and maybe you can see a base with an bubble that´s hitting a base for an hour and then if this base gets maybe destroyed there´s another one with an bubble
11-03-2016 12:48 PM
 Search 
Bruellhusten123 Offline
Member
***

Posts: 88
Joined: Apr 2014
Post: #66
RE: Fairness and Impartiality
Quote:The definition of account eating is clear. Killing another account that you appear to have control of (con yard exposed, no defense or wrong side defense, no damage attacks, resources transferred, repetitive killing) it is pretty straightforward. I completely understand why this is frustrating and we'll strive to do better going forward but there is no perfect solution here I'm afraid.

By that definition you could ban like 10 players of Teletubbies right now. Not because they did anything wrong, but because that definition is not enough.

We have a very honest and upright opponent CiC that does everything to damage us somehow.
Even though it does not seem like it he is also quite clever. Clever enough to use those criteria that you named.

He made a multi account where he exposes the CY, has a really cheap defense, leaves ressources in and sets it up as soon as it gets killed. He even made an alliance called like it were farms of us.
I mean we would leave him alone if he had no army that attacks us. So yes, we remove that base whenever it is in positions we don't like it to be.

And unfortunately this all fits in your definition of account eating.

If he did not tell his plan to others we would have not known at all about this rotten plan.

Maybe those criteria need some review. If you leave some holes there will always be players like him who exploit them.

Ingame Nicks:
Bruellhusten123
Worlds: Forgotten Attacks Beta, 100, 107, WCS2015, Firestorm 6, Speed World 1, Speed World 2

Nagelzwicker
Worlds: 19, 72, WCS

CiC of Ultimate Group / Teletubbies / High Speed

CNC addict since May 2012
11-03-2016 01:32 PM
 Search 
OpaSmash Offline
Posting Freak
*****

Posts: 869
Joined: Apr 2012
Post: #67
RE: Fairness and Impartiality
(11-03-2016 11:10 AM)rhiordd Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is doing all the above actions but not using alts but real players Illegal? (While u are at it do answer if you can determine if an action is via an alt or not!)

No. If some people dedicate a lot of time to progress to the game its fine, if someone wants to play 20 accounts, that's absolutely fine, there is no reason why it shouldn't. All of the above, done by alts, friends or alliances playing together is no problem. A problem is if certain mechanics are abused too heavily and used to get an unfair advantage. Playing multiple accounts is not having an unfair advantage, it's maybe having a lot of time, but just having a load of accounts, does not make you a better player.

"Playing multiple accounts is not having an unfair advantage,"

"but just having a load of accounts, does not make you a better player. "



That is complete wrong imo and a reason why nearly every online-browsergame doesnt allow multi-accounts.
You already have a huge advantageby by playing just one additional account. If you play 5 or more, you kill the game.

Casual gamer can't keep up with players who spend 12+ hours a day managing multi accounts. Even skilled player cant keep up vs multi gamer if they know a little bit "how to play the game".

On a long run it will probaly kill the activity of the game. And the fun part is - no one will recognize it, because the player count will go straight up because only a few people play a crap ton of accounts.


Allowing multi accounts is the biggest mistake "EA" had made since the beginning of the game imo.

---
Ingame: OpaSmash
CiC nVidia Alliances
11-03-2016 04:21 PM
 Search 
methuselah Offline
Moderator Supreme
******

Posts: 1,715
Joined: Dec 2011
Post: #68
RE: Fairness and Impartiality
(11-03-2016 11:10 AM)rhiordd Wrote:  ..........



Thanks for the clarification!

(This post was last modified: 11-03-2016 04:46 PM by methuselah.)
11-03-2016 04:45 PM
 Search 
Sorrowman1984 Offline
Member
***

Posts: 66
Joined: Mar 2014
Post: #69
RE: Fairness and Impartiality
(11-03-2016 04:21 PM)OpaSmash Wrote:  
(11-03-2016 11:10 AM)rhiordd Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 06:51 PM)Ulugulan Wrote:  Is doing all the above actions but not using alts but real players Illegal? (While u are at it do answer if you can determine if an action is via an alt or not!)

No. If some people dedicate a lot of time to progress to the game its fine, if someone wants to play 20 accounts, that's absolutely fine, there is no reason why it shouldn't. All of the above, done by alts, friends or alliances playing together is no problem. A problem is if certain mechanics are abused too heavily and used to get an unfair advantage. Playing multiple accounts is not having an unfair advantage, it's maybe having a lot of time, but just having a load of accounts, does not make you a better player.

"Playing multiple accounts is not having an unfair advantage,"

"but just having a load of accounts, does not make you a better player. "



That is complete wrong imo and a reason why nearly every online-browsergame doesnt allow multi-accounts.
You already have a huge advantageby by playing just one additional account. If you play 5 or more, you kill the game.

Casual gamer can't keep up with players who spend 12+ hours a day managing multi accounts. Even skilled player cant keep up vs multi gamer if they know a little bit "how to play the game".

On a long run it will probaly kill the activity of the game. And the fun part is - no one will recognize it, because the player count will go straight up because only a few people play a crap ton of accounts.


Allowing multi accounts is the biggest mistake "EA" had made since the beginning of the game imo.


+1

Also that "its impossible to control the alt accounts" sounds weird ... EA , one of the biggest companies cant , and all the rest web browsing games that have blocked multi accounts , can ? Is this sounds weird only to me?


For me the biggest problem of the game and the heart of the problem , is one , and every issue we have starts from this ... That the guys that taking important desicions and need to handle exploits , cheats and any kind of problems and clarify determinations and questions we have , obviously and sadly , have not even spent 1 minute to play the game... So they cant really understand the point and the meaning of the complains .. I am not trying to offend nobody at this time , but thats the pure truth..
How you can give a solutions when you dont really know and cant really understand the nature of the problem?
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2016 05:49 PM by Sorrowman1984.)
11-03-2016 05:37 PM
 Search 
chertosha Offline
Member
***

Posts: 79
Joined: Aug 2014
Post: #70
RE: Fairness and Impartiality
Thank you rhiordd for the answer.
This is now clear enough. That set of rules is exactly in the spirit of the game that I have enjoyed so much.
11-03-2016 06:08 PM
 Search 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: