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The Ultimate Guide to Forgotten Attacks v0.5
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Bruellhusten123 Offline
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The Ultimate Guide to Forgotten Attacks v0.5
Hi everybody,

this guide is written for players who already know new economy. If you already played on the Beta server or not does not matter.
If you don't know new economy, there are guides covering all basics here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1H0wO...qSlUA/edit
and
http://forum.alliances.commandandconquer...?tid=30694

The Guide will be completed step by step.

Content:
1. What is new?
2. Forgotten Attacks
2.1 Forgotten Attack Levels
2.2 Attack Waves
2.3 Frequency
2.4 Units
3. Defenses against Forgotten Attacks
3.1 GDI
3.2 NOD
4. Account management
4.1 Main Base Selection
4.2 Second Offenses
4.3 Cash/Ress Bases
5. Game phases
5.1 First days
5.2 Early game
5.3 Mid game
5.4 Late game
5.5 End game
6. Conclusion


1. What is new?
- Forgotten Attack
- Forgotten Boost is disabled
- RP Farming is fixed
(...)

2. Forgotten Attacks
Every base gets attacked. You MUST build defenses on every base.
Every forgotten base has a certain setup of units. Its comparable to your own bases. One base does not have 3 mammoths in the first attack and 5 in another attack. The attack layout can vary during the attack waves. The timespan between two attacks is long enough to fully repair when your DF is not damaged. That does not count for PVP. It is possible that you get attacked while you attack another player.
2.1: Attack Levels:
The attack levels are based on the bases that attack. A level 30 forgotten base has level 29-31 units.

2.2: Attack Waves:
At a certain number of forgotten bases in your attack range the forgotten start to attack in waves. That means once an attack is finished they start the next one. You have no chance to repair your units.
< 25 bases: 1 wave
26-35 bases: 2 waves
36-45 bases: 3 waves
46-50 bases: 4 waves (that value was changed on the last update in june)
> 51 bases: 5 waves
the border between 4 and 5 waves is not 100% secure.
There were no 5 waves seen at bases with 50 bases in range, but many 5 waves with 51 bases in range. Though we saw quite some 4 wave attacks from 52 and even 53 bases in range.

2.3 Attack frequency:
The attack frequency depends on many factors.
- A random factor is always included.
- At least one attack every 16 hours (if not the game is bugged. Happened often for a long time on the Beta)
- Number of forgotten bases around you: In a 5-wave zone you get more often attacks from forgotten than in a 3-wave zone. In a 5-wave zone you get ~5-10 attacks per day à 5 waves (so a total of 25-50 waves per day). In a 3-wave zone you get 2-5 attacks per day à 3 waves (6-15 waves per day).
- Campers are punished: Sounds like from another game, but if you stay on one spot in a 4-wave zone the frequency of attacks drops. In our observations it did not happen before 24 hours. So keep in move.

2.4 Units
The forgotten offenses get more and more unit types with rising levels. Just like in defenses.
We did not keep track in the beginning so here the few that we tracked:

lvl 24: Mammoth
lvl 26: Commando
lvl 28: Thumper (Juggernaut pendant)
lvl 30: Dreadnough (Kodiak pendant)

after that there are no new units and also no upgraded units (assuming the fortress itself does not attack - the guardian bases have no upgraded units)

before the mammoth tank there were new unit types every two levels.

2.5 Ressource Payout
Your major crystal income source are the forgotten attacks. If you want to keep up with your offense and defense levels you must stand in a 4-wave zone with your main base and endure the attacks. The rewards depend on the units used in the attacks and can vary by ~ 50%. To show the importance: Level 48 attacks give up to 200M crystal per wave. Assuming you stand in a 5 wave zone, 8 attacks per day and an average of 140M crystal per wave, than you have a crystal income of 233M/hr! The crystal income is usually higher now than the tib income of your own bases.

(...)

3. Defenses against Forgotten Attacks
Without forgotten attacks good defense layouts were a kind of goodie, but would not make you discard a good tib-layout. That changed with the forgotten attacks. You need at least a medium - good defense layout. A really good defense layout to a medium one is worth more than a secound 5-touch tib in your main base (in case you intend to switch main bases). PVE defenses vary much from PVP defenses as the AI is not very clever. It attacks in certain schemas and focusses attacks on key buildings. Usually the first two attack lines are weaker than the last two. Heavy structure busters mostly appear on the last line. Knowing this you can build very effective PVE defenses.
Pure crystal defenses are much weaker against forgotten. You can do this, but expect that you need your defense about 2 levels higher than a tib/crystal defense.
In general you want a frontline where you can concentrate your defense fire on.
[Image: kEVy8U5.png]
This would be an ideal front row. The first 3 attack lines usually die at the walls, the fourth one has 2.5 range structure buster and kills your walls + towers. They die by the units behind the wall/tower line.

As a rule of thumb you can rate your defense like this:
4 waves: Your defense can hold attacks 6 level higher than your defense
3 waves: Your defense can hold attacks 7-8 level higher than your defense
2 waves: Your defense can hold attacks 9-10 level higher than your defense
1 wave: Your defense can hold attacks 10-11 level higher than your defense

You have some time to get the researches done for those defenses as not all unit types attack from the beginning on.
But now defense upgrades have the same priority as offense upgrades.

Once you managed to set up a wall/tower defense your defense gets much stronger. One disadvantage at those defenses are the tib costs. Usually it does not pay off to build a pure crystal defense as DHQ and DF have high tib costs itself. But it might be an option for PVP players, as crystal defenses still work very well in PVP.

A more extreme PVE setup that is highly dependent from the defense layout and also the base layout itself (forgotten attack focus on certain base buildings)

[Image: vA3yhLE.png]

This defense can hold 7-8 levels above its defense level. With a defense level of 40,5 attacks from level 48 bases can be safely held.

3.1 GDI
GDI defenses have a disadvantage until you can research the Zone Trooper upgrade. This upgrade is a game changer.
The disadvantages are the weak anti vehicle tower, as well as the 1.5 range anti air infantry. In the beginning you need a whole level more in defense as a GDI player to keep up with NOD players. (note for developers: That would be a point to improve balance!)
Once you got the Zone Trooper upgrade you can start to switch to a crystal defense with some anti air towers.
From that point on you have a big advantage to NOD as you can build good defenses with less tib.

3.2 NOD
NOD defenses have an advantage at the beginning until GDI players get their Zone Trooper upgrade.
Build defenses like in the two graphics above. Key is to concentrate fire to kill the first three attack lines without losing much defense.

4. Account management
As already advised for new eco: Change your main base unless you get a 5-touch Tib or better as your start base (which hardly ever happens)
4.1 Main Base Selection
With the Forgotten Attacks the priorities for new Main Base change again.
On new economy you looked for a great tib layout and a decent power layout.
On the forgotten attack worlds this is changing.
Its the easiest to explain in numbers with a quality matrix:

1. Power Layout: weighed 35%
You need a lot of Power. Its not as crucial as in old eco, but the Forgotten Attacks give you an incredible amount of crystal if you know how to place your main base. You want to use this crystal to get a strong offense and defense which brings you more of all the other ress types in the end too.

2. Tib production: weighed 30%
Its nice and gives you a good boost in the beginning, but gets less important when you get more and more bases. But still Tib is a key ressource in the game.

3. Defense layout: weighed 35%
At least get a layout with a good defense layout.
A bad defense layout can cause in having you level the main defense 2-3 levels higher than a good defense with the same result against the forgotten attacks. DHQ and DF cost a lot, same as a 2 level higher defense, so the defense layout of your main can determine your long time success on a server.
In the late game this focus changes for GDI, but as you play the most time of the server without a Zone Trooper upgrade I would still go for this weighing.

To give you a better idea of what I mean I prepared an example:
Lets take my main base on the Beta server:
http://cncopt.com/7lfk

[Image: WB9MByM.png]

and

[Image: B38TW2F.png]
(yes the tower and the wall in the left back of the defense are really needed. For some mysterious reason they send up to 3 mammoth on the top left lane right into that wall.)

I'll take a scala from 1-10

Power: 9/10 (2x8-touch power circle, 2x 7-touch power with 8 double used power plants)
Tib: 9/10 (1x5 touch tib, 1x4 touch tib + 1x5 touch mixed and 1x4 touch mixed
Defense: 5/10 a 3x2 (3 width, 2 height - rectangle) defense field on the front right position, but thats all. The Wall/Tower defense line is not a good one here. It works and it also holds okay, but even with a 43 defense I get building damage from forgotten from time to time against level 48 offenses.

So this base would be 76% perfect Smile

Its better to take a little worse layout tib-wise and therefore getting a much better defense layout. Even though defense layout is weighed higher than tib layout I would not take less than a 2x4 touch tib for your main base.


4.2 Second Offenses
Without forgotten boost and by that without morale stuff second offenses start to make real sense for PVE players again.
You don't need a full scaled army for your second offense. A few high level ones that take down a base once the DF is dead to save RT on your main base are already worth the efford.
Push a defense in that base first. Get it high enough that it survives in a 4 wave zone and build a strong power production in there. You will get a lot of crystal in that base with which you can level a new defense. Know that the defense only repays in crystal. There is no way to get back tib from a second offense.

The layout for a second offense base should be like the one for a main base.


4.3 Cash/Ress Bases
Thats about the same as in new eco.
A little bonus would be a layout that is compact. If you don't need to cover a few lanes on one side with your defense it is easier to defend forgotten attacks.

Defenses are more important than on new eco, so a few mixed mixed 4-touch silos or a mixed 5-touch are no bad choice. A good alliance usually keeps a certain defense level in all their bases anyways which requires some crystal production, so for those players nothing changes. We tried to keep at least a 3:1 ratio, better a 2,5:1 ratio in tib:crystal production. (125M tib and 50M crystal)
Otherwise you cannot keep your cash bases close and have to pay big amounts of cash for transferring ressources.
But still Tib is the key, so just a mixed 5-touch and no other 4- or 5-touch tibs are worth hardly anything.

(...)

5. Game phases

5.1 First days
You get no real forgotten attacks until the bubbles (newbie protection) drop or you move too deep into the forgotten. I can't tell how much is "too deep". That feature was introduced after our first weeks to prevent players from placing bubble-bases next to POIs to hold them without being attacked. (maybe it was just announced but never introduced)

Lets assume you find no way to pop your bubble before the regular time.
The bubble time is pretty much the same as in new economy. You try to level up your account as fast as possible and try to get the ressource POIs early and quickly. The rush for base 2 is as important as it was in new eco: High priority, but don't sell your production to get it a few hours earlier. Things then change 2 days before the bubble is done. At this time you level your offense no longer. You start leveling your defense. Goal is to have a defense two levels higher than your offense.
Once the bubbles are down you move your main base carefully deeper into the forgotten until your defense just holds the attacks without building damage.

Once you can hold 4 waves the First Days episode is finished

5.2 Early game

Things that stay the same:
- Rush for POIs
- Rush for highest productions
- Rush for a good territory and proper digg lines

New:
- Rush for defense levels

Old and not needed:
- Rush for offense levels

If you want to grow quickest possible you focus on getting your defense up as quickly as possible.
Each offense level higher that you can hold gives you 25% more crystal income.
If a level 15 base gives you 10k crystal per wave, then a level 16 base gives you 12.5k per wave and so on.

Higher defense level means higher crystal income. The crystal income will be so high, that you can do the offense upgrades on the fly. Focus is on rushing the defense levels. It is a good sign if your defense is 2 and more levels higher than your offense. It repays.

Keep an eye on your mid and long time performance and don't rush offense levels with the hope to get a POI earlier. At least not too often.

Economy: Focus on tib production and build power. A lot of power. No priority at all has your crystal production at this stage in your main base. In cash bases a crystal production is senseful to rise the defense levels there too. You want your cash bases close by to save cash. And besides that forgotten attack your cash bases too. Depending on where it survives you can get a nice extra crystal income which you can use to push your main some more.

Research: The forgotten start sending certain units at certain levels (see above at the forgotten unit list) You need to research according defense units. When the forgotten attack you with snipers you need to counter those units.

Forgotten get: Snipers
You research: Snipers

Forgotten get: Mammoth
You research: Beam Cannon / Zone Trooper

Forgotten get: Duster (Firehawk pendant)
You research: Militant Rocket Squad / Pitbull

Everybody needs to be at the frontline. Group players by their defense levels. It sucks for players to stay in 2 or 3 wave zones.

5.3 Mid game

Things calm down. You find a balance between offense and defense.
The success of your own account is determined by your tib production and your defense level. With tib you can build power and with the crystal income from your defense you can build offense units.

Main focus here is to get the highest possible POIs while keeping all players in 4-wave zones with their main bases.

5.4 Late game
Rush for the center is part of this phase. Make sure you have the highest POI bonus.
Today (10.07.) we got the first attacks from a Guardian Base (level 50)
[Image: ksB813W.png]

By this you should level your defenses first before moving close to a guardian base. Alternatively you can shoot the area down to 3 waves.

6. Conclusion

The forgotten attacks are a great new feature making the game interesting for all those who know old- and new economy well enough.
A major change to the game play is that wars are much more difficult now. Everyone has strong defenses now and much weaker offenses. War against weaker alliances are still easy, same as wars against alliances not standing in defense clusters.

---

More parts of this guide will follow in the next days.

Feedback and criticism is most welcome.

If you want me to write more on certain parts let me know.


ToDo list:
- missing points in content list
- how to coordinate PVE players.
- math examples for crystal eco
- research order

Ingame Nicks:
Bruellhusten123
Worlds: Forgotten Attacks Beta, 100, 107, WCS2015, Firestorm 6, Speed World 1, Speed World 2

Nagelzwicker
Worlds: 19, 72, WCS

CiC of Ultimate Group / Teletubbies / High Speed

CNC addict since May 2012
(This post was last modified: 10-07-2014 10:54 PM by Bruellhusten123.)
10-07-2014 12:41 AM
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trueadm Offline
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RE: The Ultimate Guide to Forgotten Attacks v0.1
Great work Bruellhusten123. This is an excellent guide for the Forgotten Attack worlds.
10-07-2014 11:47 AM
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DGA_Sauron Offline
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Post: #3
RE: The Ultimate Guide to Forgotten Attacks v0.1
Nice guid Bruell, hopefully they will add "the forgotten attack" update to all new worlds. And restore some balance between GDI and NOD.

Visit my youtube channel @ DGA Sauron Youtube
[Image: DGA-Sauron.gif]
10-07-2014 11:57 AM
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smooothieee Offline
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RE: The Ultimate Guide to Forgotten Attacks v0.3
Wow, excellent guide! *thumbs up*

Thanks for all the info and insights mate!
I think it is a pitty, that the crystal-production becomes even more useless than before. Hope it will be adjusted to: crystal-income from forgotten attacks helps with the extra costs for defense, if done right. but you need to take care of the most part of crystals by yourself.

Looking forward to any new extensions of the guide.
10-07-2014 08:56 PM
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trueadm Offline
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RE: The Ultimate Guide to Forgotten Attacks v0.3
(10-07-2014 08:56 PM)smooothieee Wrote:  Wow, excellent guide! *thumbs up*

Thanks for all the info and insights mate!
I think it is a pitty, that the crystal-production becomes even more useless than before. Hope it will be adjusted to: crystal-income from forgotten attacks helps with the extra costs for defense, if done right. but you need to take care of the most part of crystals by yourself.

Looking forward to any new extensions of the guide.

Thankfully, you get far more crystal from defending against forgotten than you will from base production (thankfully). It encourages digging/risk play and denounces farming.

Ex-CiC of The Ultimate Group of alliances
10-07-2014 09:08 PM
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smooothieee Offline
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RE: The Ultimate Guide to Forgotten Attacks v0.3
(10-07-2014 09:08 PM)trueadm Wrote:  
(10-07-2014 08:56 PM)smooothieee Wrote:  Wow, excellent guide! *thumbs up*

Thanks for all the info and insights mate!
I think it is a pitty, that the crystal-production becomes even more useless than before. Hope it will be adjusted to: crystal-income from forgotten attacks helps with the extra costs for defense, if done right. but you need to take care of the most part of crystals by yourself.

Looking forward to any new extensions of the guide.

Thankfully, you get far more crystal from defending against forgotten than you will from base production (thankfully). It encourages digging/risk play and denounces farming.

Think about it: Digging is to secure POIs for your alliance, not just for your own progress. And to win the game. Motivation enough.
Crystal- and Tiberium-fields are solely for your progress. The necessity to balance the income of ALL ressources (tib/crys/cash/power/research) worked pretty well in new economy and was challenging. Now it gets out of hand, you get all the crystals from digging deep to use it to dig deeper and so on. Reminds me on old eco and pure power-bases ... Dodgy
But that's probably a discussion for another thread ...
10-07-2014 09:25 PM
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Bruellhusten123 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: The Ultimate Guide to Forgotten Attacks v0.3
(10-07-2014 09:08 PM)trueadm Wrote:  
(10-07-2014 08:56 PM)smooothieee Wrote:  Wow, excellent guide! *thumbs up*

Thanks for all the info and insights mate!
I think it is a pitty, that the crystal-production becomes even more useless than before. Hope it will be adjusted to: crystal-income from forgotten attacks helps with the extra costs for defense, if done right. but you need to take care of the most part of crystals by yourself.

Looking forward to any new extensions of the guide.

Thankfully, you get far more crystal from defending against forgotten than you will from base production (thankfully). It encourages digging/risk play and denounces farming.

Yes thats true.

added to ToDo list:
- how to coordinate PVE players.
- math examples for crystal eco

Ingame Nicks:
Bruellhusten123
Worlds: Forgotten Attacks Beta, 100, 107, WCS2015, Firestorm 6, Speed World 1, Speed World 2

Nagelzwicker
Worlds: 19, 72, WCS

CiC of Ultimate Group / Teletubbies / High Speed

CNC addict since May 2012
10-07-2014 09:26 PM
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Bruellhusten123 Offline
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RE: The Ultimate Guide to Forgotten Attacks v0.5
*update*
made screenshots smaller and made the Game phases section.

late and endgame still need to be filled out. As we are still in that phase and not sure yet if our strategy is the best here we will wait for the results Smile

Cheers!

Ingame Nicks:
Bruellhusten123
Worlds: Forgotten Attacks Beta, 100, 107, WCS2015, Firestorm 6, Speed World 1, Speed World 2

Nagelzwicker
Worlds: 19, 72, WCS

CiC of Ultimate Group / Teletubbies / High Speed

CNC addict since May 2012
10-07-2014 10:53 PM
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kissjon Offline
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RE: The Ultimate Guide to Forgotten Attacks v0.5
Thanks for this ! So nice of you to take the time !

kj
11-07-2014 01:06 PM
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linux249 Offline
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RE: The Ultimate Guide to Forgotten Attacks v0.5
Thanks for this great guide! You share a lot of informations and i always like that way. This is a really good guide for everyone who is new in this system and it has a lot of "intel" that normally need a longer time to figure out.

Quote:- Campers are punished: Sounds like from another game, but if you stay on one spot in a 4-wave zone the frequency of attacks drops. In our observations it did not happen before 24 hours. So keep in move

After moving it feels like the forgotten need some time to realize that there is a new target for them. But standing still is the best way to get the highest amount of "reports" (attacks*waves). With my 7 Bases it need 1-2 Days after i moved but then the ~100 Reports per day come back. Definitely it does not drop! Not after 3 and not after 7 days on the same location.
The Amount of kristall is nearly constant too, but variations comes through some more attacks from camps in my opinion.

In detail there a lot of points i have a different opinion but normally this comes from my very own style to play this new system. I hope of a new world with this system very soon to figure out what's really the best way =))


edit: what would you say to the balance between GDI and NOD in the new system? In your way to play PVE you never used the high advantages of NOD in PVE(much less rep costs) . Otherwise NOD has his little advantage with bedder rak's while a certain period as you also described in our guide. Is your experience that the difference is smaller?

TUX-mäßig unterwegs
(This post was last modified: 15-07-2014 10:05 AM by linux249.)
15-07-2014 09:57 AM
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